Hi! I’m going to answer your questions and comments and also give some detail of my understanding of the Equal Money System. Your comments are in italics. (View the blog Mike resonded to here: http://kimberly-kline.blogspot.com/2012/01/fisheries-in-equal-money-system.html)
Kim,
I think you are coming up just short of distinguishing between two concepts of "profit" here. On the one hand, just reward is regularly referred to as "profit," even as it represents only what we deserve from the pool of wealth we have contributed to. The "profit" I presume you're really advocating against could be said to be "unearned profit" -- that is, taking from the rest of us, beyond what has been contributed to the overall prosperity of the whole.
I think you are coming up just short of distinguishing between two concepts of "profit" here. On the one hand, just reward is regularly referred to as "profit," even as it represents only what we deserve from the pool of wealth we have contributed to. The "profit" I presume you're really advocating against could be said to be "unearned profit" -- that is, taking from the rest of us, beyond what has been contributed to the overall prosperity of the whole.
I place both meanings of the word profit into one category because in an Equal Money system the whole concept of ‘profit’ will not exist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juigOTzDas8 ). This is because there will be no value separate from Life. So, within this understanding, one will realize that a ‘means’ to exist does not need to be ‘earned.’ Life will be provided for in our system because being born and simply existing is reason enough to deserve to be provided for. To understand this we need to learn how to see past our own egos and self-interest to reveal our absolute equality with not only all other human beings, but also the plant and animal kingdoms we depend on to survive. The Equal Money System takes these facts into consideration by existing within the principle of ‘what’s best for all,’ and that includes environment, plants and animals. Within this, there is no ‘shared pool of wealth’ that we all contribute to, because WE ARE that wealth. It is not separate from us. ‘Money’ in an Equal Money System will be born when a human being is born, and will be only ‘spent’ on providing that human being with a dignified life. ‘Money’ will die when the human dies- therefore, no accumulation of wealth (as soon as the money is ‘spent,’ it ceases to exist).
In our current system we need to pay for our survival, and we need to ‘earn’ money by working- as if our life has no inherent value. This is proven by the 1.5 billion people who are starving simply because they cannot earn money to afford to buy food, even though tons of food is wasted in developed countries. I’ve been told ‘if you don’t understand the value of life, have a child’, that is what the currency of the Equal Money System will represent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Yf_PoMd_I ).
We need at least to distinguish between the two then, unless just reward too has to be dispensed with. While I agree with your object of arresting over-exploitation however, I don't think you can accomplish that object by eliminating just reward; and neither do I think you'd accomplish that object by eliminating unearned taking (exploitation).
We need at least to distinguish between the two then, unless just reward too has to be dispensed with. While I agree with your object of arresting over-exploitation however, I don't think you can accomplish that object by eliminating just reward; and neither do I think you'd accomplish that object by eliminating unearned taking (exploitation).
“Just reward’ must certainly be dispensed with. We are taught from birth not to take responsibility for ourselves, but rather to act only when we are rewarded. First with bribery (e.g.: if you behave I'll let you watch another television program), treats (e.g: you can only have desert if you finish your dinner) and an allowance (do your chores and you'll get money)- then with a paycheck as we get older. Humanity needs an entire re-education as we have been living in a system of rewards, competition and winners and losers for generations. There is immense value in learning what it is to do something for the sake of doing it, doing something because it's what's best for all, doing something because we have a responsibility to ourselves and to others. I can say this because I have experienced this self-expansion for myself through applying the Desteni tools of self-change within the realization that there is a lot that needs to be done in consideration for the rest of the world, and the ultimate 'reward' is creating a world that is best for all (in which case it would no longer be a reward- it would just 'be') (www.desteni.org). Furthermore, simply 'doing something' because we are living human beings and we can't just do nothing, but we can realize that there is enjoyment in presence and awareness within completing tasks that need to be completed and building self-trust and the ability to move ourselves without the motivation of a 'reward.' The concept of moving ourselves for ourvselves, and not for someone else or for the hopes or guarentee of receiving a reward for our actions, can onl be realized by everyone when their basic needs are met and they have security for theselves and their children in the future. Unfortuneately the opposite of this is what exists today.
The Equal Money System includes a complete overhaul of the education system because the current education system only teaches us how to survive and prosper in this system of competition, winners and losers and rewards. This system perpetuatates the idea and belief that one should only move oneself if there is a reward to be gained. Education in an EMS will be based on practical living, common–sense and a consideration for all Life. There are many blogs, articles and videos which go into more detail about our proposed education system. (http://kimberly-kline.blogspot.com/2011/12/no-more-ivy-league-schools-in-equal.html, http://kimberly-kline.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-will-children-learn-without-teacher.html , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX76dsRVWis, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aX1hX_4OQk&feature=related )
The reason is, that so long as the object of fishing is to take fish, even the pursuit of just reward compels exhaustive harvesting of fish. Of course, exploitation of a power to harvest compels even more taking (so you are right that eliminating unearned taking will at least reduce the compulsion to over-harvest).
The Equal Money System includes a complete overhaul of the education system because the current education system only teaches us how to survive and prosper in this system of competition, winners and losers and rewards. This system perpetuatates the idea and belief that one should only move oneself if there is a reward to be gained. Education in an EMS will be based on practical living, common–sense and a consideration for all Life. There are many blogs, articles and videos which go into more detail about our proposed education system. (http://kimberly-kline.blogspot.com/2011/12/no-more-ivy-league-schools-in-equal.html, http://kimberly-kline.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-will-children-learn-without-teacher.html , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX76dsRVWis, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aX1hX_4OQk&feature=related )
The reason is, that so long as the object of fishing is to take fish, even the pursuit of just reward compels exhaustive harvesting of fish. Of course, exploitation of a power to harvest compels even more taking (so you are right that eliminating unearned taking will at least reduce the compulsion to over-harvest).
The object of fishing is to feed people- No more and no less than they need- and the fish themselves only have the value of what they are- living animals which happen to be edible and provide nourishment. In this way, fish will not be bought and sold, but rather provide unconditionally as they do already (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqij0AhFMJw ). Humans have a responsibility to the fish and all other resources, as custodians of the earth and within great humility.
But we can't dispense with the proposition of just reward, because it's the very premise for our due, from the sum of prosperity to which we have contributed.
But we can't dispense with the proposition of just reward, because it's the very premise for our due, from the sum of prosperity to which we have contributed.
We can dispense with the propositions of ‘just rewards’ if we change the economic system and the meaning of money altogether and instead realize that Life is an act of grace given to us unconditionally when we are born. The same premise will apply to money in an EMS, wherein nothing is ‘due’ or deserved as some value outside of us (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6cXWa2srnM&feature=feedu).
Thus we can't solve the problem of over-harvesting until we recognize the limited effectiveness and impropriety of doing so "economically" or monetarily.
Agreed.
Largely, over-harvesting of natural resources is a consequence of a further impropriety (which we can resolve). We believe wrongly that we borrow money from purported banking systems which in fact only publish further representations of our promissory obligations. The further unwarranted fact that these representations are subject to interest, inherently multiplies a sum of falsified debt, as we are forced to borrow principal back into circulation as new debt, equal to any former sum of debt which might otherwise be presumed to be resolved; and as we are forced to borrow interest back into circulation -- perpetually increasing a sum of falsified indebtedness by so much as periodic interest on an ever greater and eventually terminal sum of falsified debt.
This perpetual escalation of indebtedness is what compels us to harvest and to produce more and ever more, just to tread water against the resultant escalation of debt. Fix that (by mathematically perfected economy™), and you relieve the extent to which we must harvest more and more — but you wouldn't necessarily prevent over-harvesting or over-consumption, either.
Largely, over-harvesting of natural resources is a consequence of a further impropriety (which we can resolve). We believe wrongly that we borrow money from purported banking systems which in fact only publish further representations of our promissory obligations. The further unwarranted fact that these representations are subject to interest, inherently multiplies a sum of falsified debt, as we are forced to borrow principal back into circulation as new debt, equal to any former sum of debt which might otherwise be presumed to be resolved; and as we are forced to borrow interest back into circulation -- perpetually increasing a sum of falsified indebtedness by so much as periodic interest on an ever greater and eventually terminal sum of falsified debt.
This perpetual escalation of indebtedness is what compels us to harvest and to produce more and ever more, just to tread water against the resultant escalation of debt. Fix that (by mathematically perfected economy™), and you relieve the extent to which we must harvest more and more — but you wouldn't necessarily prevent over-harvesting or over-consumption, either.
In an EMS all debt will be erased as debt is modern slavery and is absolutely unacceptable. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpVgzjt6gq0). We live in a system where the value of money is merely an agreement- mostly just numbers on a screen- and it is created along with debt, out of thin air by those who have the means to do so. In this way, it is almost still a feudal system. When money is backed by Life- both the problem of the compulsion to keep one’s head above water, as well as the problem of over-fishing (over-consumption), are effectively solved, as fish (resources) will lose their monetary value and maintain only their actual value- once it is consumed, it is gone. The EMS is a common-sense system, very straight forward- take only as much fish as you need, ensuring the fisheries are able to complete their cycles and maintain their numbers.
As monetary justice has to meet its requisites, we can hardly serve our purpose by compromising monetary justice (eliminating just reward for example). Thus to achieve your object, we need to recognize that we have to directly limit harvesting. It's as simple as that.
As monetary justice has to meet its requisites, we can hardly serve our purpose by compromising monetary justice (eliminating just reward for example). Thus to achieve your object, we need to recognize that we have to directly limit harvesting. It's as simple as that.
The EMS will allow us to realize the equality that is already in fact here, only then we will truly experience justice for the first time. There is no justice in money at present, and there is no justice in a world where children are raped for money while you and I eat well and live with relative safety and security.
What's really important to understand therefore is how much the present exploitation of our money system compels us to our own destruction. We have two fronts here (also at least a third): 1) monetary justice; 2) just harvesting of resources (which owes an equal right to further generations; and 3) preservation of a rightful environment for all future generations.
What's really important to understand therefore is how much the present exploitation of our money system compels us to our own destruction. We have two fronts here (also at least a third): 1) monetary justice; 2) just harvesting of resources (which owes an equal right to further generations; and 3) preservation of a rightful environment for all future generations.
We do not exploit our money system- we support it and allow it to exploit us, as us (we are the money system), and then we accept and allow our own destruction through our participation within and as it. Monetary justice is irrelevant because money only is what humans make it, so it is the ‘justice’ of the human that needs to be addressed. The EMS will allow money to simply be a means to feed and clothe and provide for that human as he learns what justice, equality, self-honesty, self-responsibility (etc) really means, what it really is and how to live according to it.
Concerning your points about equal harvesting of resources with a consideration for future generations- agreed, and the preservation of the environment now and for the generations to come-agreed- these need to be addressed/changed to equality based systems with a consideration of the ‘whole’.
We can only fix the latter two if we fix the first, because the first will make it impossible otherwise even to afford fixing the latter two.
Concerning your points about equal harvesting of resources with a consideration for future generations- agreed, and the preservation of the environment now and for the generations to come-agreed- these need to be addressed/changed to equality based systems with a consideration of the ‘whole’.
We can only fix the latter two if we fix the first, because the first will make it impossible otherwise even to afford fixing the latter two.
A solution should not be affordable/unaffordable- a solution should be unconditionally provided- especially where the alternative is destruction. An EMS will allow for these types of solutions to be focused on until these systems are restored and the problems are fixed. People will not need to be paid to solve these problems. In an EMS- we will, step by step, solve the problem because it is in our best interest and in the best interest of all equally- including future generations to come. There are some who have not been brainwashed enough to only work for rewards (money), and who will step forward to work to make the world a better place. These are people of character and integrity, and they exist.
You know, upon a further look at the "EqualMoney" site... I'm afraid I can only say these preposterous propositions are a dime-a-dozen now. EqualMoney.Org doesn't even articulate the artificial monetary problems of our time. Much less does it solve them. If we're all guaranteed an equal wage, you destroy the whole principle of just reward; but neither do you solve the impetus for over-consumption. You still have to regulate harvesting if you don't want to over-harvest, because after all, if everyone can afford a share of the harvest, you have all the more mouths to feed (better than they are).
How do you reach monetary ideals, and how do you likewise meet the political requisites which accomplish these goals?
If everyone can afford a share of the 'harvest' then competition amoung humans is eliminated, and the insecurity and fear for survival is gone becaue there is enough food to go around. Changing these fundamental aspects of human Life will change human nature- here is an interesting experiment with animals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVCHjj5fek, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o3__nUBIgY. I'm not saying this will be a magical transition, but one can predict that a child born into a Life without competition and with guarenteed security for Life, will be a different product than what children become today- this along with the reformed education system will assist the children (future population of earth) to be the kind of human being that are produced by and will perpetuate a system that cares for and supports all Life.\
The proposition of an Equal Money System will be ‘preposterous’ if you call it so and believe it to be so. If you call it impossible right off the bat then of course it will not be possible- because then you’ve already written it off and so you can’t even have a conversation about it. The thing is, it cannot be proven to be impossible, so that leaves only possibility, however improbable. However, there is a large and growing international group who are well organized and dedicating themselves to the implementation of this system through political and democratic means (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1ZsYas-f40).
We are currently in school, getting degrees in law, education, psychology and politics. We are placing ourselves as effective members in the system, eliminating our debt, becoming financially stable, using our individual resources to further ourselves, implementing income earning solutions for the problem of funding political parties (http://eqafe.com/, http://desteniiprocess.com/ ) and placing ourselves all over the internet We are doing so visibly, through blogs and vlogs and our websites, and with our real names (google or youtube equal money- you’ll get pages of results).. We are building communication networks through every aspect of social media, sharing everything we are doing and how, and we are committed. This will take time because we are only several years in, but if you simply call it ‘preposterous’ right off the bat, of course that is what you will see and believe and that is what will be real for you.
But we see that this is possible simply because it is not impossible, and we are taking it as seriously as death, because people are dying (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axbF0wEJPJQ ). We have a plan and our collective actions accumulated over time will create results. Over the next ten years we are branding, educating ourselves and others, and flooding the internet with simple, straight forward information/realizations/understandings about our current economic system, explaining the workings of the Equal Money System, and pointing out the insanity of the former, and the common-sense and all-encompassing benefits of the latter. We are developing trust-worthy and self-honest online personas as we are becoming trustworthy and self-honest people in our own lives as we investigate ourselves and our own human nature in order to understand why we are the way we are, and how we are individually responsible for creating humanity that is the way it is (you can read our ‘process blogs’ to further understand this statement, if you go to networked blogs and search the words ‘desteni’ process’ and ‘equal money’).
1. First of all, you remove undeserved profit and cost from food. These involve the artificial inflation of (all) costs by perpetual multiplication of falsified indebtedness. This is solved not by promising an equal income, but by eliminating exploitation from the currency. Thus, as I wrote, mathematically perfected economy alone solves these issues; and likewise provides for us to sustain the most cost-effective means of production and distribution.
1. First of all, you remove undeserved profit and cost from food. These involve the artificial inflation of (all) costs by perpetual multiplication of falsified indebtedness. This is solved not by promising an equal income, but by eliminating exploitation from the currency. Thus, as I wrote, mathematically perfected economy alone solves these issues; and likewise provides for us to sustain the most cost-effective means of production and distribution.
The EMS will remove undeserved profit and cost from food because food will be a resource that is unconditionally the right of everyone and will be provided to everyone as a fulfillment of that basic right. This problem is not solved with an equal income within the rules and boundaries of an economic system that treat money as if it has its own value. The EMS is an entire change in what money is, what an economic system is, and what resources are. Money is backed by Life, it represents your value as a human being, and it represent a means to access that food, water, shelter, medical treatment etc… to which each human being has the inherent right. In an EMS money will be but a tool for equality, to ensure each has enough, the economic system will reflect the unconditional giving that we witness when the earth provides for us. Resources are equal to us, there is no exploiting, there is a humble taking and an unconditional giving, as when you pluck a fruit from a tree and eat it, and then in turn water that tree and provide fertile soil. Mutual caring and considerations, because we can, because it makes sense, it is in our best interest, and it honours Life.
2. Equal income therefore solves nothing -- if anything, it might encourage many (or at least some) not to contribute to our overall prosperity as much as they might otherwise. The just rewards of true free enterprise therefore are the only real impetus to maximal overall prosperity -- shared equitably according to contribution. If you are hungry and you pick a plum from a ripe tree, needing 5 to stave your hunger, is your problem solved by promising to give you 4 more, even without a way to warrant someone will pick them?
2. Equal income therefore solves nothing -- if anything, it might encourage many (or at least some) not to contribute to our overall prosperity as much as they might otherwise. The just rewards of true free enterprise therefore are the only real impetus to maximal overall prosperity -- shared equitably according to contribution. If you are hungry and you pick a plum from a ripe tree, needing 5 to stave your hunger, is your problem solved by promising to give you 4 more, even without a way to warrant someone will pick them?
The Basic Income Grant is only the initial stage of the implementation of the EMS. It will immediately solve poverty and starvation, preventable disease, dehydration, homelessness- and it will end all industries that people only participate within to survive- such as children selling their bodies to bring money home to their families and slave labour (insanely long hours/terrible conditions/less than adequate wages etc…) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhOH_IC68Hw ). Industries will end and it will be a mess for a while, but so long as everybody is fed, we can begin to take care of eachother and work out the implementation of the Equal Money System as we go. We face challenges as they are presented according to the principle of oneness and equality, and doing what’s best for all in all ways. We cannot predict the future, but we will stick to the principles when we need to find solutions.
3. On the further hand, if there are 5 of us, and there are only 10 plums on the tree, we *do* recognize our right is to two apiece. Neither is that object accomplished by a guaranteed income -- especially if that income equates to possible consumption still of more than 2 plums apiece.
We will care for the tree and the tree will continue to produce fruit unconditionally. The better care the tree is given, the more ample will be the fruit. We will plant the seeds of the fruit we eat, and we will grow an orchard, and we will care for that orchard as we care for ourselves. We will provide fruit to all those who need it, so long as it does not compromise the care of the orchard. We will supplement the fruit with the other food produced. This was a point in my video.
In an EMS, food will be a local endeavor, community-organized and run. The ‘buy-local’ movement is already strong as it is a common sense solution, but it is struggling in our current economy. In an EMS it will be easily implemented as many communities are already figuring out ways to feed themselves without depending on corporate food. Even where I live- in a big city- I can order a ‘basket’ from a local farmer at a given price, and I will receive produce all season long, and there are even some that go through the winter.
4. To solve the problem of just consumption therefore, we have to decide to limit consumption to a just share. This isn't to artificially increase the costs of plums beyond the regular cost of harvesting them. It just means we have to say each of us can only have two.
The EMS is an equality-based system, so each person will get not an exactly equal share, but what they need to be healthy and to function at their ultimate capacity. I don’t eat as much as my husband does, so he can have two plums, and I’ll have one, meaning- to each what he or she requires.
5. The only solution of all this then is mathematically perfected economy™, in conjunction with responsible regulation of rights to consume finite resources.
Maybe we can work together, as we seem to have the same concerns. Please investigate further into an Equal Money System, and check out Desteni too. Thank you for your response.
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