Thursday, April 19, 2012

Response to Muertos 2

Hi again Muertos. I read your response to my blog and responded to it to the best of my ability in this post:
(Your statements will be in Italics)

You claim that the Desteni I Process is a means to self-finance a political/social movement to remake the world in Desteni's image. Yet, researching Desteni, I see very little evidence that this is the case.

DIP is but one of the ways the Desteni group is financing itself to eventually (realistically, in about 10 years) enter into politics to change public policy from profit-based policies to policies that support life. For more details about the political platform which you can vote and comment on, visit the Equal Money Website ( Desteni doesn’t have any specific ‘image,’ it is a group with clearly defined and stated principles, which are to consider all life within everything you do (a.k.a: equality and oneness). I’m taking a First Peoples Studies class right now, and I learned that part of Native American ideology is to “think seven generations ahead”, so that, within whatever you do, you think about the effects your choices and actions might have for the next seven generations to come. But why stop at seven? That’s the difference with Desteni: it is to consider all Life, for all time.

            You probably found very little evidence about the political movement, first of all, because the Desteni material is extensive and takes a serious commitment to research and understand. It’s really easy to just skim it over and make ideas about it that are completely opposed to what the group stands for.

Second, because the ‘Desteni’ aspect of this process is where the personal processes of individuals is taking place, while the Equal Money side of things is where politics, monetary system, health and educations systems etc… are more specifically discussed. There is much overlapping, but generally, there is a division. For example, people will have two different blogs for the two different categories. In the end, it’s all one and it intersects all over the place. I didn’t know about the Equal Money movement right away either, it took me about a year to get to that point, but it’s becoming more obvious now as more people are participating and understanding the principles and how the two relate to each other (the individual process and the ‘world systems’ process). My personal blog : or, Equal money blog is this blog.

Thirdly- right now the focus/priority is on the individual processes, because nobody can change anything until they change themselves first. So, right now the priority is self-change while the platform for the Equal Money System and the political processes are in their very first initial stages in terms of the websites, social media networking, funding, and clearly explaining the principles in every way possible and putting it online in writing and vlogs. This will take a lot of time, dedication, commitment, and the evidence of our dedication, commitment and the investment of our time is found in the websites, funding methods, networking, vlogs and blogs which are everywhere.

 You say you're not paying for DIP courses. Who is paying, then? Somebody somewhere must be--and if you say that the proceeds of selling DIP courses is for the purpose of financing political change, there is money changing hands somewhere. So my question is: where is this money going? Do you even know where it's going? Have you ever bothered to ask where it's going?

I’m not paying for my DIPcourses because I have been sponsored. The sponsorship program is built into the design of the course. A percentage coming from every paying member is committed to the sponsorship program, and many people are being sponsored (about half, the last time I heard). It is Desteni members supporting other members. When I am able, I will pay for my courses in order to support those who cannot. It is worth it to me, and I’m committed to support a group that is dedicated to change.

I’ve never asked where the money is going because I was never asked for money.

Nobody is asked for money.

If you decide to do DIP it is YOUR decision which you should thoroughly consider and fit into your life when you are ready. The people who make that decision have been participating with Desteni for long enough to see for themselves where the money is going.

If you’re concerned about where the money is going within any kind of investment or donation, then don’t give invest money. If you’re not comfortable, then thoroughly research it before you make a decision. I wouldn’t recommend giving one’s money away to anything or anyone unless you have proven to yourself through thorough research that the company or business is legit. That is common sense.

From my perspective, as someone who has tried it out for herself, it is the most worthwhile investment one can make, because it is an investment in myself as well as in the change I want to see and work for. But this I proved to myself. I never placed blind faith into Desteni. I tried the tools for myself, I read the information, I interacted and asked questions, I participated. I read the cult websites that were opposed to Desteni so that I could see it from both sides. I did all of that for several years before I made the decision to join DIP and purchase some products from the online store (which also has an affiliate program that gives a percentage of sales back to members who chose to participate).

Yes there are parts of Desteni that you can pay for IF you choose to do so, but the majority of it is free, and both DIP and the Eqafe online store are designed to support you in return.

 If this were a scam, it wouldn’t be very profitable, because if you try out the course and you don’t like it, all you’re liable to loose is less than one month’s course payment. Think about that. It just doesn’t make sense.

What does make sense is that this is a legitimate leadership training program that people have first tried out for free and then decided to pursue once they proved to themselves it works.

What also makes sense is that this is a group who have found a very plausible solution to a really huge and horrible global situation, and are now, against all odds, dedicating themselves to that solution. It just requires commitment by a large group of self-directed people, which is what we’re busy building.

Everybody who is aware of the suffering on earth should be clamoring over each other to get into politics to change the laws and policies that have created these problems, yet Desteni is the only group that I have heard of that is proposing a global political economic solution to a global political economic problem. If you were a person starving in an impoverished country, what would you want the population in rich countries to be doing? By placing myself in their shoes, I decide how I should be directing myself as a human being, and I figure out what is really important.

 If you take DIP, you will be so thoroughly faced with the interconnectedness of this world, that you will feel the urgency of the situation of the planet as if it were your own responsibility to act (which it is). So we act. But self-change is first required, because the nature of who we are as humanity is how we got into this situation in the first place. So first we find a way to change our nature, eliminate the fear, the consumerism, the deception, the ego, the self-interest, the superiority/inferiority, the judgment etc, etc, etc. We cannot be trusted with life until we deal with this stuff first, as efficiently and effectively as possible.

The Desteni material, when applied, allows you to build a mirror in which you can see the things you’ve put up with in your life so that you can change, it reveals to us our nature in order that we may face it, forgive it and change it. We do this until we establish self-trust, and we continue to do this until we are a large group who can be trusted. But first we have to prove to ourselves we can be trusted. Have you ever made a commitment to yourself and then failed to live up to it? The Desteni tools, and especially DIP, helps you develop the discipline to make commitments and live up to them.

If indeed Desteni is using this MLM scheme as a way to finance a political/social movement, where is the fund or foundation that's being used to do this?

The Equal Life Foundation. ( still being developed but the site is up, the domain is owned)

Is it a nonprofit?


 Whose laws (which country) is it organized under?

It is based out of South Africa, under their laws. Here is the info from the introduction page of the Equal Money website "The Equal Money System (EMS) is a research and development Project to formulate and investigate responses to general policies that affect the day to day life on Earth as to lifestyle for human, animal and plant. This project is managed and directed under the auspices of the Equal Life Foundation, a Non-Profit Organization, constituted under South African Law, duly audited as per legal requirements. Please support this NPO – either by donating or buying products from our online store."

 Have you seen its profit and loss statements? If you or someone on your behalf is contributing money to an organization that you seem to describe as a non-profit, you have a right to see the finances and know where the money is going.

All laws will be abided by and thoroughly adhered to, just like they are with DIP and Eqafe.

Why is Desteni not using this money to finance political campaigns?

It is too early for political campaigns; we are right now doing research, writing online books, exposing current problems, setting up websites, blogging, vlogging, supporting each other on forums, developing social networks, learning the way the current system works, going to school, training leaders that can be trusted to lead as equals, and forming a group from all that are willing and able to join and commit themselves to themselves and to all life as themselves. This entire endeavor is being built from the ground up, it is a huge endeavor that cannot just happen, it is happening little by little, consistently over time, which will bring about results.

Recently, a new desteni-specific social networking site has been put up called destonians- the earthlings, as well as a Desteni- Wiki site explaining concepts and terminology. There ave also been countless facebook groups organized, for example, stopping a habit in 21 days, redefining money, the 7 year journey to life, animals lead the way to oneness and equality, occupy solution: the Equal Money Solution, stop all religions and learn to live as equals, blogging and vlogging and sharing self-realizations, 2012- The year of self-transformation, self-forgiveness group, Redefining health and disease, wellness and illness, The equal life party -one party, one princl=iple- equality, why is starvation not murder? Insanity of the Beauty Industry, and many, many more. The latest development is the change in the Equal Money System website; the political platform has been posted. It has been posted in a way that reflects how the Equal Life Party will function: one man, one vote in an interactive venue that allows one to disagree and place input into each decision. Many in the group are in school, studying law, economics, education, politics and psychology, or working at jobs that will place them in the most effective positions to stabilize themselves financially so that we are not owned by debt.

How many candidates is Desteni running, and for which offices?

Desteni will begin the political process in about 10 years; these questions will be dealt with when the time comes. As I have said, this is being built up from nothing, leaders are being trained, and information is being made available to all current leaders who are able to hear and understand the importance of valuing life and the environment over money. If current leaders do not step forth and stand up for a dignified life for all, then anyone who joins Desteni will learn to give themselves what it will take to stand up for life in this way, by their own actions. This is done by placing themselves effectively to do what they can with the resources they have and with the support of the group, in order to work within a group to bring about change. This group is completely open to anyone who is willing to stop and change. I can’t predict the future, but this is what I see is already happening, and what will continue to happen over the years as the group grows and the individuals within it become more effective.

 How are they paying for their campaigns?

Remember that MLM ‘scheme’ you’ve been all up in arms about? The subject of your first blog, then my response, then your response to my response? That's one way. Then there’s other courses and the Eqafe online store, donations, t-shirts, blog books. We’re self-financed.

 Is Desteni paying volunteers to go out there and drum up support for the Equal Money System? If so, who is paying them, how are they being paid, and where is the money coming from?

 Volunteers are ‘drumming up support’ freely, by explaining the common sense and absolute gains of an equality-based system through blogging, vlogging and social media. That’s what we do; we use our time to spread the message of equality over social media so that people realize that this failing economic system has an alternative that can be better than what we have now. Personally, I do it because it’s what I would want for myself, it’s the kind of system I want for my nieces and nephew and for their children and so on. I don’t want future generations to repeat our mistakes, so I do not expect to be paid to explain this as much as possible. Nobody involved in Desteni is paid to ‘drum up support’.

You claim there's total transparency in the system. If that's truly the case, you should be able to answer these questions quite easily.

It was quite easy for me to answer these questions.

You claim that DIP cannot be a pyramid scheme or hierarchy because each agent is limited to 10 followers (in MLM speak, each distributor has a maximum downline of 10). This is nonsensical and doesn't eliminate the pyramidal structure at all. In fact, it reinforces it; if you're planning to take the world by storm but each distributor is limited to a downline of 10, you're going to need a lot more distributors, aren't you? Therefore, the 10 downline cap is in place to expand the horizontal reach of the pyramid at the bottom--but the money is still going right to the top. It's actually pretty rare in well-financed MLM schemes for a distributor to have more than 10 in their downline, because most MLM distributors make peanuts anyway. This does not alleviate my concerns whatsoever.

Yes,DIP is structured as an MLM business, yes Desteni is going to be supported by its members this way, while at the same time giving members the opportunity to support ourselves. The maximum of ten recruits ensures equality among members, and as I’ve said before, the MLM includes a sponsorship program to ensure equality for those who can’t afford it. There are many abusive pyramid and MLM’s out there because that is what our current economic system rewards, but Desteni is not one of them. Just because Desteni has to find ways to make money does not mean it is automatically ‘up to no good’. Actually, when I think about it, most businesses that are out to make money are up to no good, because they are placing profit above life. Desteni values life, and will always work towards an economic system that does the same.

You claim that Desteni has no leader. What role do you believe Bernard Poolman plays in the Desteni organization? You do realize that all of the initial Desteni material--the weird videos with the chupacabra icon, Sunette Spies channeling Hitler and pieces of toilet paper, etc.--was all created and directed by Bernard Poolman, right? If he's not the leader, what is he?

Bernard Poolman realized what it would take to create a real lasting change in this world and he started to do it. He realized that only a group of equals would be able to effect this change, so he used the internet. As a result, people learned what he was doing, saw the common-sense in it and began doing it as well. He is the one with the most experience with the Desteni tools. He shares the realizations he’s had through social media. As far as I have ever seen, he is dedicated to equality and bringing it about first through economic equality to get humanity on an equal playing field (to play together, not in competition).

I have been involved with Desteni for 3-4 years, and Bernard Poolman has had very little to do with my personal process of self-change. He doesn’t have that kind of power over anyone, nor would he want it. Because if someone can be manipulated by him, then they can be manipulated by anyone and therefor they can’t be trusted. If anything, Bernard challenges one to look into why they react to him. If you are reactive, then you can’t be trusted either because then your reactions have more control over you then you do. People who lash out in anger and hate or allow greed are not self-directive, but rather directed by their emotions and feelings.

I watch the videos Bernard makes for insights and the common sense they offer.

The chupacabra is a painting made by Andrew Gable from Canada and is not some mystical magical mysterious thing, he made it up himself and Bernard liked it. It’s composed of all different animals forming one being, which is a cool message. I don’t know if that’s why Bernard chose to use it, but that’s why I like it and I find it fitting for someone who is dedicated to the principle of oneness (and equality).

His role is as an equal in the group. We’re all making videos, blogging and vlogging, he just makes more than most are able to, and his videos tend to bring out more reactions from people. I think he does that on purpose, because he’s only ever talking about equality, and the absolute evil of humanity in this world. Many people don’t like to hear that, but it’s true. There are some serious atrocities going on in the world, to the animals and to children and poor people and within all walks of life. Let’s acknowledge that and not pretend like everything is rosy. It’s not. It’s so beyond fucked-up that I don’t think a lot of people could handle it. I have a hard time watching youtube videos of farmers burying hundreds of pigs alive, and factory farms and the abuse of animals. Now think of that on a mass scale, add child prostitution and rape, murder, the appalling violence of war, torture, starvation. Bernard talks about that stuff and reminds us that we’re all responsible for it because we participate in a system that creates it, supports it, allows it, rewards it, accepts it. That is some EVIL shit, and it needs to end. That is what he is saying. People will react because it’s a tough pill to swallow.

But if you react to his videos you’re basically saying “I’m not responsible for this” or “I am not equal to this evil, I am better than it’ or “I am less than it.” That’s not true, we are all exactly equal to it, and until we realize that, it will not change. Anything other than equality allows us to ignore the problem or only try half-assed solutions. We need to realize our ABSOLUTE equality to other people and to the world systems if we are to empower ourselves to change it. The only thing that makes us unequal to those starving in poverty is money, so an Equal Money System will solve that so that we can finally see the real equality that is here that money obscures.

I commit myself to stand with each that choose to stand till this is done and through such support it will be as if I have walked it myself, yet each part would have walked themselves to life, yet they were not alone as we walk as one yet as self responsible for self.” –Bernad Poolman

Most of the justifications you present for joining the DIP are very vague statements about equality and such. There are no specifics. When Desteni members are challenged on the unsavory aspects of their group, they retreat to very bland generalities about "equality, oneness and doing what's best for all." Any further questioning of Desteni dogma usually sparks the challenged person to paint the questioner as opposing the idea of equality. That is a classic cult mind-control tactic.

All of our process blogs are the Desteni tools 'in use,'  whch are learned in DIP or for free on the website. Learning these tools is THE reason for doing DIP, understanding these tools, their purpose and effectiveness is accomplished through reading the blogs. You can also read the ‘blogging forsponsorship’ thread on the desteni site to see why people are joining DIP, by showing that they are comitted and have a good grasp of the tools and the reason for using the tools.. The rest of your statement here does not apply to me, as I have answered all of your questions to the best of my ability. You are making accusations about Desteni members here, but this has not been my experience.

 Equality and oneness and doing what’s best for all is not a bland generality, it is a set of principles that systems (such as economic or educational systems) can be founded upon. Whatever system is created by mankind should be created according to these principles, because that is what you or anyone would want if you were born into a position of lack. A system based on these principles would not allow lack, because those creating the systems would consider themselves equal to those who the system is being created for. That’s equality.

Oneness involves viewing the entire world system as one thing, where something that happens over here effects and has consequences over there. Like one country that over-consumes creates another country that doesn’t have enough because of finite resources.

Doing what’s best for all involves every aspect of a system to be analyzed by policy analysis techniques (which already exist today to analyze current policy) in order to make sure that everyone is considered in all decisions.

Equality and oneness and doing what’s best for all can and must also be applied on an individual level: Equality involves, for example, notjudging (for example, viewing another  as inferior or superior rather than your equal), not reacting (because then you allow another to have power over you instead of you being equal to yourself and directing yourself).

Oneness involves valuing yourself as others, and others as yourself. And this includes all life- obviously. I know some may find this part crazy and think something like “I’m not equal to a plant” or something likfe that. But, in reality, we value ourselves more than our environment, and look at the effects that has: we’re destroying it. We are running out of water. Our oceans are full of nuclear waste, plastic, oil, dispersants, tires, garbage, sewage and all sorts of other human by-products and waste which is created and exasperated in a profit-based economic system. If we valued our environment as much as we valued ourselves or money, the world would be a very different place.

Doing what’s best for all means, within every action we consider its effects on the whole.

For an example of incorporating and integrating the principles of equality and oneness into an individual life, read my blog about the 7 year process I have committed to here:

I'm glad that may blog caused your friend to try to intervene. That's definitely a good friend.

Yes- I agree that is what a good friend should do if he or she claims to care, and I told her that. The problem is that she was misinformed, by you. She’s cool about it now- at least that’s what she expressed.

 You are in a dangerous and destructive cult.

I have here taken the time to answer your response as an equal. I only ask that you do the same within my following question:

1) how exactly is Desteni dangerous, and where did you get that information? Please provide examples, either direct quotes and their location online, or specific videos and which part in the video concerns you. Please notice this question has two parts; How is it dangerous, and, back your argument with supporting proof. This is not an unreasonable request, because if you don’t provide proof that everyone can check out for themselves, then you can just say anything. I want to keep this in the realm of reality by providing proof that anyone who has internet access can verify for themselves, and not just in your mind of ideas where you can think anything you want (and say it) without having to actually back yourself up.

There are resources out there for people in your situation to try to disconnect from mind control cults, but you have to want to do it.

The mind control cult I want to disconnect from is this CULTure I live in, which had me believing I needed to be seen as beautiful and sexy in order to have value -which trained me to compete with my fellow man in order to be successful. -which had me believing success was a matter of how much money I make, regardless of what consequences I was creating through making it –which had me believing I can’t change, -which promotes mindless drinking and sex without promoting commitment, understanding and respect, –which tells me Hollywood is more important than billions starving –which promotes piece of shit products that are cheap and polluting and waste my money, but is okay because it creates profit somewhere else, -which sells violence and sex to children and young adults through movies, magazines, videogames and online, -which condones war and calls it patriotic and heroic, -where if you don't have money, you don't have a voice or a value… I can go on and on…  What I am describing here is a dangerous and destructive cult. This culture we live in; our status quo.

This is what Desteni is taking on as a task to change. Spreading common sense so that people can look at how dangerous and destructive we have become, and pointing out the consequences which are slowly arriving at our doorsteps. The systems that supposedly 'support us' are fracturing, they’re failing us. Look at Canada’s healthcare system, look at unemployment in the U.S., look at the economy in Europe, look at debt. When people are fed up and ready to realize the need for change is imminent, the Equal Money System will be there, more mature then it is now, more acceptable than it seems now, because now people are still comfortable; we can still live the lie that consumerism is ok and nothing bad is happening. But the entire world is practically screaming at us to wake up. Those of us who live in insulated bubbles in developed countries, who have enough, i.e.: those of us with the power to change things, but refuse to because of what it would require, are the ones who need to be shaken awake. But like you said, you have to want it. No one can do that for you.

 Anyone who joins Desteni is making the commitment and the statement that we are ready to face it now, to change our lives and stop living the lie. We may be innocent because we were born into this system as it is, but we cannot claim ignorance. When one decides to realize this, Desteni will be waiting. I will be waiting. Bernard Poolman will be waiting. Waiting to support you to change yourself, to take on the enormous task, to empower yourself, to commit. But while everybody reacts to us, ignores us, watches us from the sidelines, or whatever- we will be constantly and continuously working on ourselves and taking small steps, day by day, to grow the awareness and realization, the concept of Equal Money and the funding necessary, and creating a platform that will be able to support it all.

 I hope you'll pull out of it because I hate to see shady people like Bernard Poolman use and abuse the trust and admiration of innocent people who fall into his orbit. Good luck to you.

Hope is just another word for inaction. Bernard Poolmandoesn’t have that kind of power. I may be innocent, but I’m not ignorant. I don’t require luck because I am taking full responsibility for what I do and the consequences thereof. Besides, ‘wishing’ someone ‘luck’ is really an ineffective way to have an influence or make an impact in any way- I’m just saying.

1 comment:

  1. "Shady people like Bernard Poolman?" Yeah,"MUERTOS!" It's so easy to talk shit about someone you don't know or ever communicated with.